SAS turn radius

Ask technical questions about your Ford Bronco II here. Technical write-ups on your axle swaps, engine swaps, chop tops, etc. are encouraged.
stevenf
Posts: 96
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:32 am

SAS turn radius

Post by stevenf »

I am wanting to put a Dana 35 or 44 SAS on the front of my 89 but dont want to lose my turing radius. I LOVE that I can turn around on a two way street and go the other direction lol. Can this be fixed or I have to lose the steering for the SAS?
User avatar
PHROX
Posts: 95
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2004 3:01 pm
Location: salt Lake City
Contact:

Re: SAS turn radius

Post by PHROX »

i was worried too, but i think i actually gained some turning radius.
1987 Bronco2, d44/9" locked, sweet paint job. Now with available 5.0
stevenf
Posts: 96
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:32 am

Re: SAS turn radius

Post by stevenf »

Is this because you made your own longer steering arms with the crossover setup or it doesnt work that way?
stevenf
Posts: 96
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:32 am

Re: SAS turn radius

Post by stevenf »

Also, Is D44 the smallest straight axle? Im trying to avoid the TTB setup. Ive read that explorer 8.8's are 58.5" wide, how wide are the Dana 44's? What are they most common on?
vabronconut
Posts: 268
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:04 am
Location: CENTREVILLE, VA

Re: SAS turn radius

Post by vabronconut »

stevenf wrote:Also, Is D44 the smallest straight axle? Im trying to avoid the TTB setup. Ive read that explorer 8.8's are 58.5" wide, how wide are the Dana 44's? What are they most common on?
smallest straight axle i think is the jeep dana 20, i would avoid anything but a 44 or larger. there is a reason the jeep guys are always after the eb dana 44's. as far as turn radius it depends on how you set it up. there are bump stop bolts on the inside of the knuckles that you can adjust to give you abetter turn. the 2 biggest variables is what height tire and what is the width of the tire? these will severly impact your radius. too wide and you'll be doing 6 point turns going into your drive way, too tall the will rub on everything including radius arms, frame, fenders. you were talking about a full size dana 4 before, if you want fat tires i would go this route, as it puts the tires further away from the frame. another option for wide tires it to get a deap off set wheel.

if i am right about what you are building ( i have been keeping up with what your doing but cannot remember all the details) your doing a sas on the cheap using a gm 12 bolt rear from a full size. is this right? if you use a full size rear i would do the same in the front. 3 1/2" lift and some fender trimming you should be able to fit 36" x 12" tires no problem. and have a tight turning truck. when selecting axles remember the front OR rear should be wider than the other, by only less than 3" or so, helps a ton on the trail when they do not follow in the exact same rut.
87 bronco II 93 5.0 HO, NP435, 44 sas
stevenf
Posts: 96
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:32 am

Re: SAS turn radius

Post by stevenf »

You were correct about the GM 12 bolt and on the cheap. However, I have changed my mind about both. After making the brackets for disk conversion, I realized it would be a better choice to do an explorer 8.8 swap and ride on the stock 3.73's for a while. The explorer 8.8 is also a bit stronger then the 12 bolt. This is still by all means a budget build but I want it more of a road worthy rig. I plan to go mudding when places are available and I plan to do light trails at hunting camps and so on. I wont be needing rock crawling durability from my axles, but I want them to withstand a 302 conversion (if I go that route) and 32-33"x 12" tires.
Would you still recommend a D44? I would like it to not be noticably wider then the explorer 8.8.
vabronconut
Posts: 268
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:04 am
Location: CENTREVILLE, VA

Re: SAS turn radius

Post by vabronconut »

stevenf wrote:You were correct about the GM 12 bolt and on the cheap. However, I have changed my mind about both. After making the brackets for disk conversion, I realized it would be a better choice to do an explorer 8.8 swap and ride on the stock 3.73's for a while. The explorer 8.8 is also a bit stronger then the 12 bolt. This is still by all means a budget build but I want it more of a road worthy rig. I plan to go mudding when places are available and I plan to do light trails at hunting camps and so on. I wont be needing rock crawling durability from my axles, but I want them to withstand a 302 conversion (if I go that route) and 32-33"x 12" tires.
Would you still recommend a D44? I would like it to not be noticably wider then the explorer 8.8.

if it were me and i was on the cheap i would do the explorer 8.8 but find one with 3.55 gears, and then find a eb front 44 or 30. they are nearly the same width, eb's came with 3.55's or the 30 came with 4.10's which you can find a matching 8.8 from an explorer or even a 89 or 90 bii. the 30 will work for general trail riding and mud running. get into serious hill or mud climbing it will give you grief but also with 32 or 33" tires you should be ok. the eb dana 30 is nearly worthless to sell so watch the classified forums on www.classicbroncos.com and someone will probably give you one for free. both the 30 and 44 came with other ratios like 3.73, and 4.56 but they are sort of rare. if either came out of a original v8 truck it is more than likely its 3.55. the straight six trucks had the better ratio's like 4.10 and 4.56 to compensate for the lack of grunt from the little six.

something that might help you since you are taking your time in doing this, pick a pair of axles you really want, then keep an eye out on craigslist, ebay, or other sites. the axles you want will come around at the price you want to pay but you have to be patient. personally what i generally do is get on ebay or classicbronco's and look for people who appear to be parting out a truck and send them a private message asking them if they have what i want. like on ebay you see a guy selling body panels, seats, dash items, then ask him if hes parting the whole thing out and if he has what you want. most people do not list big stuff like axles because one they are difficult to deal with for shipping or what not. two they arn't worth a whole lot especially if they are geared with 3.55 and drum brakes. third the 30's fetch more money at the recycling center than they do trying to sell them and without a whole lot of hassle.

your not around here but i know of a couple guys who have eb axles laying around, the 30's they almost beg you to take them, the 44's with drums they want like $50-100 and with discs needing seals and bearings they want like $150 to $250. i bet if you posted a items wanted add on classicbronco's you will get more than a few responses local to you.

good luck
87 bronco II 93 5.0 HO, NP435, 44 sas
stevenf
Posts: 96
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:32 am

Re: SAS turn radius

Post by stevenf »

I have tried that on several occasions but noone is anywhere near me in Louisiana. There are also very few Broncos in general around here whether it be the BII, Full size, or EB. Thats another reason I was looking for an explorer. I originally thought the D35 was a straight axle. For me, it really comes down to either a different brand vehicle, or a Ford truck. Any SUV's or Ford trucks you have in mind? Old F-series are easy to come by around here, are they wider then the explorer 8.8?
vabronconut
Posts: 268
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:04 am
Location: CENTREVILLE, VA

Re: SAS turn radius

Post by vabronconut »

old f series (by old i mean up to 1979) have straight axles some 5 lug 44's some 8 lug 44's ( called 44hd) and some have the golden dana 60. any of these will work great. yes they are wider than the stock bii and also the explorer. if i recall rightly they are 6" wider, so 3" each side but with deap off set wheels this may turn out pretty sweet. for the full size axles- the rear is easy just cut off the stock spring perches and weld on the ones from your bii in the new position. ( full size trucks ran 3" wide leaf springs where the bii ran 2.5". i am willing to bet you can get a 3/4 ton dana 60 or ford sterling 10.25" rear end for next to nothing in the bone yard. the front you can either build out boxes to move the spring towers closer to the wheels or cut off and reweld the axle wedges. i probably would move the wedges as it would bring in the radius arms to line up better with the frame. moving the wedges and perches and having them welded on is really cheap or you can do it yourself for free. the front axle can be gotten from any early f-series or 78-79 bronco. too bad you don't live around here i know where a few of these are that go for cheap but the shiping would kill you.
87 bronco II 93 5.0 HO, NP435, 44 sas
stevenf
Posts: 96
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:32 am

Re: SAS turn radius

Post by stevenf »

So the explorer 8.8 is not as wide as the F-series 8.8? I read that the explorer 8.8 was 58" wide, my GM 12 bolt came from a full size truck and was 59" wide so it seems it would be in the same category.
So I am going to take it that we are pretty stuck on the D44. I will take everyones advice as far as durability goes. Do you know the offset of the stock BII rims? I like mine an awful lot. Also, Since the D44 might come from an F-series, should I take the 8.8 from it also? I was going to pickup a 8.8 and then a front, it seems like getting a front first would work best so I can match it with a rear of the similar width. Do you have a front picture of your BII? What did you D44 come off of?
User avatar
PHROX
Posts: 95
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2004 3:01 pm
Location: salt Lake City
Contact:

Re: SAS turn radius

Post by PHROX »

ok, lets start over a little bit.

for the front... the axle is not what you are looking for. its the suspension. ford used the "swapable" suspension in the early broncos(all of them) as well as in f-150's and broncos from 78-79. i think thats right, either way they are pretty recognizable due to the long radius arms (look at anyone thats got an sas swap and you will see what i mean). (Grab everything from the upper spring buckets and radius arm brackets down). the only difference here was width. the 78-79 are full width. once you have the suspension for a strait axle you can basicly weld any axle you want under there.

The rear is easy, pick an axle and weld on some spring perches. (100-200 bucks for the fab work, i would also move the shock perches out of the way)

For front and rear you are going to need custom drive shafts made. (60-100 for the rear cuz it needs to be balenced, 30 for the front cuz it doesnt.) (Also make sure you get a double cardon drive shaft for the rear(has two u-joints at the top end) anything else will give you geometry or strength problems, wasted 100 bucks on a drive shaft with just one u-joint. it would rattle above 30 mph and sounded like a bad transfer case, but it was bad geometry in the u-joint.)

you will also most likely need a shop to weld together your traction bar mounting bracket to get the geometry right for your steering. (here is where i recomend the 79 bronco axle. Its 5 on 5.5 bolt pattern is common, it has disk brakes, full width, it high pinion which gives better ground clearence, plus the draglink hooked up to my b2's stock likage perfectly, also it usualy has a matching 9" rear near by)

you will have to pick out a set of after market eb springs if you get full width axles, the full size springs are too stiff. duff and wild horse sell them for about 100 bucks a pair.

you will also have trouble mounting the driver side upper spring bucket. you will hit the spot on the frame where the power steering mounts make the frame a funny shape. i just cut the bucket to fit around this but be aware it will be a problem.

Also if you go full width you might need to make custom spacers on the upper spring buckets to move them wider. I did enough lift that it wasnt nessesary but again something to think about. you will prolly decide this while you are doing the swap. look to see if the spring are tilting in alot. if they are just fab something to move the top buckets out a little.

I think thats it. i am sure you have more questions now than ever, so let us know and we can give you the answers.



Just my opinion now. befre you dump a bunch of money into your axles i would recomend just going huge. before you put a 1000 bucks into a ocker and some new gears, think about getting a d60. i have a d44 that i put 1500 bucks into and wish i could go back and use a bigger axle. just a though. If i could do it over again i would go for some unimog axles. they give you 6" more ground clearence, can run 44 inch tires with no problem, come stock with shift on the fly lockers, and cost about the same as a tricked out d44 or d60. just something to think about. prolly not good for a dd.

Another thought. If you are planning a 302 swap might want to do it now. ripping everything out gives you more room to work and you will save money cuz you wont have to make two sets of driveshafts.
1987 Bronco2, d44/9" locked, sweet paint job. Now with available 5.0
stevenf
Posts: 96
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:32 am

Re: SAS turn radius

Post by stevenf »

Are there any D44's that arent full width?
vabronconut
Posts: 268
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:04 am
Location: CENTREVILLE, VA

Re: SAS turn radius

Post by vabronconut »

i agree with phrox in everything he said. only thing is i believe your not wanting anything extreme just some mud and trail riding is this right? if so like i said you can go the dana 30 straight axle as a alternative since you say we are stuck on the 44.

you question about is there any axles that are not full width, yes the early bronco, jeep, and international scouts, but again watch out for which side the pumking is on, or commonly called "drivers side drop " is the only one that will work on the bii without some serious work, or drive train changed.

for what you want i would consider getting the axles front and rear out of a explorer. they are the dana 35 ifs or ttb. a 44 straight axle is not a great daily driver axle as it rides rough. the 44 is a tough axle, has a huge aftermarket, and is pretty common and thats why most people go this route. the dana 20 and 30's are more jeep axles, the 20 is straight crap the 30 is pretty good for light to medium wheeling and tires from stock to 33's. there are kits out there to convert the brakes to disc and a fair aftermarket for it.

the trucks you asked about with 8.8's do not have straight axle's they have the danan 44 or 50 ttb or ifs. which is not the best but is extremly difficult to swap under a bii becuase the mounting of the axle pivot points. the rear 8.8 from one of these trucks would work great under a bii but again are full width.

some explorers i heard had dana 44 ifs under them and that would be an awesome swap for you to steal the front and rear out of one. matched pairs make life way easier. probably grab the drive shafts also.

again you said daily driver and light to medium wheeling. if your building on a budget then be realistic to what you need, if this is all the wheeling your going to do then there is no need for heavy duty straight axles, most guy run the sas because of large tires or hard wheeling, anything less than that and your wasting money.

maybe tell us exactly what you want to do with the rig and we all can recommend something?
87 bronco II 93 5.0 HO, NP435, 44 sas
stevenf
Posts: 96
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:32 am

Re: SAS turn radius

Post by stevenf »

When I said you guys were stuck on the D44's, I didnt mean that in a bad way. I just mean I dont think I will be using the full potential of a 44 and it would be overkill. For this rig, I will be driving on the road more then off. Any 45minute-an hour trip for some trail riding, I will drive it there. There are a couple of good muddin spots around here that my crappy Jimmy cant handle. I want it for wood trail riding at a few hunting camps, mabey a fishing/camping trip that might be a tough destination for a stock BII. Basically, I want the 4wd and tires strictly for fun. I will go out of my way to find places for wheeling but here in Louisiana, there arent any parks or deserts to go competing in.
One thing I do want from the axles is to handle a stock 302 on 32-33" tires. Ive been researching the D35 from Explorers which would be convienient to pull both axles from a explorer at the yard. The TTB would also be a better ride on the road.
Would you say the D35 can handle a 302? What spline alxes do the D35's have and what spline to the D28's have? Just want to do a little comparing.
Also, I may go with a 4.0L if you guys think that is more suitable for me. I know I could use the stock trans with a 4.0L. mabey the 302 is overkill also.
vabronconut
Posts: 268
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:04 am
Location: CENTREVILLE, VA

Re: SAS turn radius

Post by vabronconut »

stevenf wrote:When I said you guys were stuck on the D44's, I didnt mean that in a bad way. I just mean I dont think I will be using the full potential of a 44 and it would be overkill. For this rig, I will be driving on the road more then off. Any 45minute-an hour trip for some trail riding, I will drive it there. There are a couple of good muddin spots around here that my crappy Jimmy cant handle. I want it for wood trail riding at a few hunting camps, mabey a fishing/camping trip that might be a tough destination for a stock BII. Basically, I want the 4wd and tires strictly for fun. I will go out of my way to find places for wheeling but here in Louisiana, there arent any parks or deserts to go competing in.
One thing I do want from the axles is to handle a stock 302 on 32-33" tires. Ive been researching the D35 from Explorers which would be convienient to pull both axles from a explorer at the yard. The TTB would also be a better ride on the road.
Would you say the D35 can handle a 302? What spline alxes do the D35's have and what spline to the D28's have? Just want to do a little comparing.
Also, I may go with a 4.0L if you guys think that is more suitable for me. I know I could use the stock trans with a 4.0L. mabey the 302 is overkill also.

don't worry i didn't take anything by you saying stuck on 44, but the statement is true when most people ask about a sas the overwhelming majority will say the dana 44.

i don't want to talk you into or out of anything that you want to do so please don't feel im pushing anything here. i see allot of folks get over their heads doing allot of swaps and end up giving up on the whole deal. mostly because they didn't expect the cost and fabrication involved in these swaps.

by taking of what you say you want, in my opinion and mine only i would go the explorer route, they are sooooooo cheap. the 4.0 is a good strong engine, no 5.0 for sure but has allot of pep. the 4.0 is a simple swap into a bii. and i would also do the dana 35/ 8.8 swap from the explorer. you probably can find a explorer down there that has a bad trans and buy the whole thing for like $800 and get everything you need. the junkyards will also make sweet deals if you strip a truck so they can go ahead a crush it and get the money for the metal. the explorers are so common in a junk yard you will have your choices of what axle ratio's you want. using the explorer stuff also allows you to use the same wheels you have now. the 35 will hold up to what you are doing, and the 8.8 will definietly hold up, it was used in full size trucks using the 351w so no problem there.

and again just imo if you the sas way and 5.0 even on the cheap it will run you an easy 3 to 4 grand, when you think about the little stuff like exhaust, radiator, sensors, drive shafts, new wheels, carb, engine, trans, tcase, headers, lift parts, brackets,............. and save you fabing a body lift, track bar mounts, modifying the heater box, spring and shock mounts............

but the benifit of doing the sas and 5.0 is that the truck will awesome and go where heeps won't !!!
87 bronco II 93 5.0 HO, NP435, 44 sas
Post Reply